Jeff writes, subtly misquoting me, "If a river could mean a stream" is not an if, but a certainty. “Joseph was able to inadvertently describe unknown details of Mesoamerica with its: ups, downs, passes, necks, directions, cities, religion, etc.”He was so good at it that most “experts” in BoM geology can’t agree on where it was. “... departed into the wilderness … And he came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea; and he traveled in the wilderness in the borders which are nearer the Red Sea; and he did travel in the wilderness...when he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent”So, gonna have to side with Jeff again, sorry, keep hoping I can agree with you so i can appear to be open minded but I don’t wanna sacrifice integrity. All of this occurred after he departed into the wilderness in verse 4. OK, the Wikipedia article refers to some long distance treks with camels across Mongolia noting that the pace was typically from 10 to 25 miles per day. Nephi later sees a version of this dream in 1 Nephi 11 and 12, where he shares a detail in 1 Nephi 12:16 that he did not record in 1 Nephi 8:  "And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the fountain of filthy water It's there.By the way, Potter observed that Lehi's travel near the "borders" might refer to the mountainous region around the Red Sea, given that the Hebrew cognate for "border" in Arabic means "mountain". Loose translation is always on call for those cases where tight translation fails, and vice versa. Just noticed OKs response. ...either way, IF or no IF, all of these ultimately "obtain" : ). Tip for Helping Missionaries: Add Spices to Their Life, Turning Gems into Dirt: The Case for Adam Clarke as a Source for the "Inspired Translation" of the Bible. JeffLindsay (Secular), In Lehi's dream in 1 Nephi 8, he saw a river of water flowing by the great and spacious building, and saw that many drowned in it as they left the straight and narrow path and wandered into forbidden paths. The only other excuse (it's ALL a convenient miracle!) didn’t notice him missing and still mortgaged, and IF Niebuhr actually mentioned the Valley and River along with Bountiful, the turn, etc. We don't know how loads were distributed, but even the long-distance Mongolian pace includes up to 25 miles per day, which is the figure Potter used in determining where the limits must be for a plausible Valley of Laman. Too much of the world lacks access to clean drinking water. I'll get back to you on them as soon as I can. Really makes you think, eh? Either is probable in 3 days. Speaker. Not saying it doesn’t happen but it seems uncommon. Fruit trees, grain, pure water flowing continually into the Red Sea? at Book of Mormon Central. We can see through it. Arguably still the only plausible choice for survival along such a long trail through the desert, but certainly not the "only plausible choice" for a generic trip outside of Jerusalem. It's an interesting side issue that, IF correct, adds some further granularity to the text. . Ad hominem attacks are about calling people names rather than confronting the merits of an argument. But based on freshness of the camels and the possible urgency of Lehi's escape from his personal enemies from Jerusalem, it's likely that they were going relatively fast initially.

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